Welcome to Workplace Confidential, the podcast where we decode the chaos of the modern workplace.
I’m your host, Stephanie MacDonald, employment lawyer and founder of Workplace Legal in Toronto. Each episode, we tackle the questions that keep career driven folks up at night, like how to succeed at work and enjoy your life. When to hire a lawyer. Keeping your cool while navigating workplace drama. And most importantly, how to enforce your workplace rights.
Expect expert tips, real world advice, and a few laughs because in today’s workplace, humor might just be our best survival tool. Ready to take charge of your career? Let’s dive into today’s episode of Workplace Confidential. All right.
Welcome to the first episode of Workplace Confidential by Workplace Legal. I’m so excited to be doing this podcast. It’s the first time I’ve ever done a podcast. And so bear with me. So the way today is going to work is I’m going to tell you a little bit about me, and then I’ll get into today’s topic.
So just a little bit about me to start is I grew up in Barrie, Ontario, Canada. I currently live in Toronto. I did my undergrad in philosophy, and I love philosophy because it allowed me to contemplate life’s questions and come up with my own analysis of, you know, ethics, knowledge and metaphysics, which I found very interesting. I grew up playing hockey competitively my whole life.
I had such a great time playing hockey. I think it taught me a lot about working as a team and self discipline and I still have a great love for the sport. I go to lots of WHL games in Toronto. I love supporting our Toronto supporters here. Can’t wait to see how the league expands and grows.
It’s very healing to my inner child to go to all these games because, when I was playing hockey, there were no professional options for women. There was kind of the Olympic option. But, as you might know, some of those players had to work at Home Depot in order to kind of subsidize their lifestyle.
So I think it’s amazing that women are being recognized, in a professional sport and being paid like a professional. So beautiful for me. And, you know, when I realized there weren’t a ton of careers in philosophy, I was sad to know that philosophy wasn’t an option for me as a career.
But, I decided to go to law school because that’s one of the more straightforward options from a philosophy degree. So I went to law school. I enjoy law school. A quick, quick fact about me is I didn’t get into law school right away. Law school is pretty hard to get into. You have to have excellent outside score, excellent grades, and pretty good grades.
But myself, that was tough. But I finally did a great job on my third try outside and I got in because I didn’t get in at first. I actually went to the paralegal program at Centennial College in Toronto, and that was kind of my introduction to the city, and I had a great time there.
And thankfully, while I was in paralegal school, I got accepted into law school and I loved law school. I went to Western University. It was great for me. I participated in every possible moot. If you don’t know, a moot is like, a mock trial, where a panel of judges or a single judge will basically give you feedback on your oral advocacy skills. And it was a great way to practice my oral advocacy.
The other part of law school I absolutely loved was being part of the legal clinic. I participated in the legal clinic all three years of law school, and I got real hands on experience in real legal matters.
So actually, in my first month of being participate in the clinic, I got a client acquitted from a criminal assault charge, which was really fun and interesting. It was a lot of pressure having someone’s kind of livelihood on your shoulders or was potential jail time, potential probation. And so getting that acquittal was was such a high for me. And then I continued doing other types of matters like small claims court stuff, landlord tenant board.
And I got a lot of experience on my feet, and it really encouraged me to to keep going through and down that oral advocacy and litigation path. It was it was great, I loved it. The cool thing about the clinic was, although it was under the supervision of lawyers, like I was the only one going to the meeting by myself, I was the only one, you know, going to court. The lawyers were back at the office. So it was a lot of independence, and it was really good and a great way to start my training.
So after law school, I had exactly two job offers for articles, and one was an insurance defense firm and was one was an employment law firm. And I frankly could not see myself doing insurance defense defending insurance companies just seemed completely at odds with what my soul’s interested in.
So decided employment law. And I never really pictured myself in employment law. But I quickly fell in love with it because I saw the harm that employees were experiencing in the workplace. And I also saw the power imbalance.
And, you know, the unfortunate parts of capitalism that kind of seep their way into my clients lives. And I found that I was actually able to make a difference for their career and their lives and their livelihood. And that was so rewarding for me.
And it really helped me develop this passion to helping employees kind of assert their rights in the workplace and get what’s rightfully theirs. So in my art of my role, I received what I. What I feel like is some of the best training in employment law you could get. It was the best and biggest employment or plaintiff’s side or employee side firm, in Canada.
And so it was a great experience. I’m very grateful for the experience that I had there, and it was a very high volume practice. And so after a little bit, I decided to try to go to a smaller firm and get some more specialized experience.
So in my second firm, I was able to get specialized experience in helping financial services employees. So I learned a lot about incentive compensation, stock options, reviews. And we were able to help some kind of hire level clients and some executives, which I found pretty interesting.
But ultimately, after having about three years of experience in a couple firms, I decided to, start my own shop and called that workplace sage legal. The goal of workplace legal is to help employees assert their rights in the workforce, and obtain their legal entitlements on termination.
And I basically handle any workplace dispute. I love having my own practice because I’m able to run it the way I want to. I have the freedom to, you know, nap during the day, wake up later.
I found it hard having a very rigid schedule at other firms. And so having the flexibility to plan the days that I like is a beautiful thing. And I always recommend people to consider self-employment because it is one way that you can kind of escape the abusive relationship that is, capitalism and employment and capitalism. So, look, I’m extremely passionate about helping employees with their rights. It’s definitely a stressful job.
But, when I’m able to obtain positive results for my clients and I see them go on to do bigger and better things, it makes it all worth it. And the goal with this podcast is to really deliver information to employees, as many employees as possible, so that they can, assert their rights in the workplace, know when it’s time to call a lawyer, and look, if we don’t know our rights or how to enforce them, they mean absolutely nothing.
And rights are the only thing that’s able to kind of protect you from the really cold approach of capitalism and employment and capitalism. So I think I’ve said that already a couple times now.
But, employment in capitalism is exploitative, in my opinion, and I’ll just say it like it is. That’s what I’ve seen in my job, and I think my role is one of the few roles where I can have an inside look into what employment is actually like.
And my goal is to combat against that and make it society a little bit more, you know, friendly to families and employees. And I do what I can to help. It’s truly hard to watch as it really is. And sometimes it really gets to me to see the ways that, employees are exploited in the workplace. But, it is what it is. And we got to work through the system and ultimately, hopefully the system changes eventually.
But right now, the best we can do is assert our rights and, move forward as gracefully as possible. I also wanted to mention I do have ADHD and I’m part of the queer community, and it does get a little bit awkward just throwing that out there, but I think it shows, the type of perspective that I’m coming from, you know, see how ADHD and other neurodiverse issues are important to, to note in the workplace, it’s very hard to to engage in, in employment when you’re, not neurotypical.
And so I bring that lens to my work. So the other thing I wanted to let you know is, I do practice employment law differently than a lot of my colleagues. I think, you know, my goal is to bring empathy, compassion, and warmth to my interactions with my clients.
I think I was also trained by a couple people who were very cold in their approach. Very kind of let’s get to the point. And I don’t care about your feelings kind of situation, but, you know, I care deeply about my client’s feelings.
I know that employment can be traumatizing. It can affect our mental health. And, you know, the last thing I want to do is for my clients to feel uncomfortable or more stressed when they have to talk to a lawyer.
So my goal is harm prevention as much as possible. You know, this process isn’t easy, but if you have a lawyer who’s compassionate, who listens to you, who cares about you, I think that can make the process a lot better.
And that’s my goal. So on this podcast, I will be addressing important topics that affect many employees during their careers. I hope you’ll find that the information is of value and you know, if you ever need to contact me directly. The best places to visit my website at Workplace sage.com. You can also send me an email directly at Stephanie at Workplace sage.com.
With that, let’s get into today’s episode. First of all, I just want to give this caveat. I’m going to give this caveat every time. But, you know, this is legal information and or advice to give you advice. I’d have to meet with you, obtain the specific facts about your situation and tell you how those facts and the law kind of apply to your situation. And so don’t act on anything I’m telling you today. Take it with a grain of salt. It’s meant to be general information for the general public.
If you need specific information, I highly recommend you contact me or another lawyer or paralegal to assist you and make sure that you’re making the right choice.
So today the topic is terminations of employment. And I wanted this to be the first topic because truly this is the meat and potatoes of my job. It’s the main thing that I deal with. I’m very passionate about it. And, you know, it’s something that will affect most people throughout their career.
There’s some people who never go through a termination that’s probably the exception rather than the rule. And so I think it’s a very important topic. And I want you all to know, what exactly you have to do when you’re terminated, what your rights are, what the law says, and you know what to do with the severance package offered. It’s not fair.
So, I mean, one thing to also note is terminations can happen to anyone. It doesn’t matter how amazing you are at your job, how amazing you are as a person, it can happen to anyone and that the employment can be terminated for any lawful reason as long as they pay you the appropriate severance package.
So that’s generally the exercise that happens. If you have a consultation with me, I look at your situation, your termination letter, your employment contract, and I try to determine if what they’ve been offered is fair and then tell them what to do if it’s not fair.
Now, just to get ahead of some of the lingo, there’s a few words that you need to know when we’re talking about terminations. So there’s three kind of terms that talk about what notice you’re entitled to when you’re terminated. So I just want to get ahead of that and make sure that we’re on the same page.
So one is notice of termination. So the employment Standards Act and there’s various acts throughout the provinces, each province has its own act, and there’s provincially regulated people who are covered by the provincial statutes. And then there’s federally regulated employees that are governed by the Canada Labor Code. And I’ll get into that.
What that means later. But so there’s notice of termination, which is the employer giving you notice or, you know, informing you that your employment will be terminated. Now sometimes they give you working notice.
So you have to work during a period. And after that period your employment inside of and sometimes you are let go right away and the notice period starts, you know, after your last day at work, obviously it’s much nicer if you don’t have to work through that period. So there’s notice of termination and then there’s several. So severance means, in Ontario specifically also federally.
But there’s different rules to it. But Ontario specifically, it means you have at least five years of service and your employer has a payroll, a global payroll of at least 2.5 million. Which case you’re entitled to severance.
In addition to notice of termination. And then there’s reasonable notice. So reasonable notice is a common law concept. And common law just means the law created by judges.
So an employee goes to court, they go to trial and a judge makes a decision. And that decision and the reasons for the decision becomes law. And then the judges in similar jurisdictions and similar levels of court have to apply that law to similar cases.
So, we have a bunch of law that has developed over, you know, decades of Canada’s existence to create what’s called reasonable notice. So reasonable notice just means, common law. Notice that you’re entitled to so basically notice of termination and severance is more of the statutory protection.
So the Employment Standards Act or the Canada Labor Code and then common law reasonable notice is the judge is the law made by courts. And it applies unless there’s a termination clause. I’ll get into all this.
But generally speaking, like people use notice severance and reasonable notice interchangeably. But if you want to get to the nitty gritty, reasonable notice is common law. Notice of termination in severance is, the statutory law, the legislation that’s been created by the government.
So first thing about terminations is the termination meeting. So often you’ll get a sudden email or something saying, you know, hey, come for this meeting. Sometimes people are surprised that there’s often a second person they’re at that meeting, usually an HR person.
If you see two people at a meeting, one of them is HR. You know, it’s a good indication that it’s either a termination or some type of performance issue. But, they’ll tell you, you know, you’re being terminated when your last day is. They’ll give you a letter. You can ask why you are being terminated and take note of the answer.
But don’t argue with them because the decision has already been made. And there’s typically nothing you can do to avoid the termination. It says once they tell you about it, that’s it kind of thing.
They’ll hand you a letter. You can read it in the meeting or later if you decide to read it in the meeting. I mean, you might be a little distracted by all the emotions you’re feeling and, you know, the shock of the situation.
So generally speaking, if it were me, I would just take the letter and read it later. You might just want to ask, you know, who can I contact if I, have any questions about the letter?
And most importantly, don’t sign anything. Just even if they’re pressuring you to sign, which they’re really not supposed to do, don’t sign anything.
Even if they say, you know, you have to accept by 5 p.m. today, don’t sign anything until you speak to a lawyer. That’s probably the most valuable advice you’ll receive on this podcast. So and next thing I want to talk about is just the emotional aspect of being terminated. It’s not easy being terminated.
You know, it does affect your self-esteem. It doesn’t matter how good you are objectively at your job, it doesn’t matter how excellent your performance reviews have been.
It’s really hard to receive the news that you know someone doesn’t want to employ you anymore. I would just encourage you to not take it as personally as you might be inclined. Too often it’s a business decision and you know, in capitalism, I think employers kind of forgot their humanity a lot.
And so they make decisions based on money alone. It’s not personal, generally speaking, and it can be hard to put that into practice.
And trust me, I know it’s easier said than done. But, you know, getting terminated is so unknown and scary. Also, like your finances are unknown. And I think that causes a lot of stress.
And look, take some time off. I think it can be very difficult being terminated. The courts recognize that people who are terminated are entitled to a little bit of time off before they start looking for another job.
That period is usually about a month, you know, but what I recommend is when you get home on the first day after being terminated, I would just melt into the people who love you and let them support you.
And, you know, make sure that you get in comfy clothes and order some comfort food and just relax. And then the next day, get back on the horse, call a lawyer, and make sure your severance package is fair. I also recommend that people do therapy if they have access to it.
The therapist could really help you deal with some of the emotions that come with being terminated, some of the self-esteem issues that you might be experiencing. They can also just help you support, support you, and, you know, try to be empowering to get you to your next, your next role or your next steps or even just the next day. So I highly recommend considering therapy.
Your benefits package might have an ERP program or, access to private therapy, so I highly recommend you check that out.
And now the employer will give you a deadline for responding. And typically it’s a week.
Sometimes it’s like 48 hours or sometimes it’s really short. But you know this deadline is a little bit artificial because they’re trying to kind of put some time pressure on you to accept an offer that’s probably lower than what you’re entitled to.
And look, they’re interested in you signing the document that comes along with the termination letter. So you probably notice that there’s a document that comes with the termination letter.
It’s usually called the full and final release. And they’re interested in you saying that because that full and final release basically tells the company, hey, I’m releasing you from any further, like liability relating to my employment.
And that provides certainty to the company about what their legal liability is. And so they’re interested in you signing that. And generally speaking, a good employer will give you enough time to review that and speak with a lawyer.
But note that if you don’t sign it, you know, before the deadline, it’s probably not a big deal, you know?
And probably less than 1% of cases employers will actually pull the first offer. But it’s very rare and it only happens in very unique situations. And so don’t fuss about that deadline too much.
You know, you probably do want to try to get a consultation in, you know, within the deadline, but I wouldn’t fuss about it too much and just know that they’re interested in you taking the time to review everything and actually sign.
And so and then going into reasons.
So one myth is that employers have to give a reason for termination, unless you’re a federally regulated employee in Canada and you have more than 12 months of employment and you make a request for reasons, that’s kind of the only time they’re obligated to give you reasons. And that’s because the Canada Labor Code says that that’s what they have to do.
But for all other, provincially regulated employees or, you know, federally regulated employees with less than 12 months of service, you’re not entitled to any reasons. And sometimes they will give a reason. Sometimes they’ll say restructuring or performance or cause, but it can’t be for an unlawful reason.
Okay. So just make sure that you know, it’s not based on discrimination. And discrimination includes any kind of differential treatment based on a protected grounds. So differential treatment could include a termination. So if your termination is due to race, sex, pregnancy, ethnic origin, religion, these are all protected grounds and you can’t be terminated for those reasons.
You also can be terminated. During a protected leave of absence. So if you’re on a medical leave or if you’re on a maternity parental leave, if you’re on a family caregiver leave, these are periods of time when your employment is protected and so your employer can’t terminate you during those leaves. There are exceptions to that rule, but that’s the general rule.
Conversely, they can terminate you for a lawful reason. So lawful reasons are anything that’s not discriminatory or in reprisal. And a reprisal just means, like you’ve asserted some rights in the work.
Your employer has terminated you for asserting those rights. So as long as it’s not an unlawful reason, they can terminate you. So you’re not performing well.
They don’t like your attitude. They don’t like how you dress. They don’t like, you know, your smile.
Any reason that’s not discriminatory has to be a protected ground, a prohibited grounds of discrimination. So, like, the way you look is not a prohibited ground? I think it should be potentially, but it’s not. And, Yeah.
So, so I think a lot of people get really flustered about the reason and they want to know the reason. I will say it’s pretty hard to get a reason if they’re not willing to give it initially. And I would encourage you not to worry too much about the reason.
I think not knowing the reason is uncomfortable, but, just know that, you know, they made a business decision. It’s not personal. And if you’ve kind of over ruminate about the reason, I think it can cause a lot of anxiety and try to radically accept the situation you’re in. I know, again, that’s easier said than done, but it’s difficult because employers are or there’s a reason why they don’t always give a reason. That’s because they’re trying to protect themselves.
And it has nothing to do with you getting down to the economics of things. The thing is, when an employer gives you a termination letter, it’s typically a low first offer. And that’s not true across the board.
Sometimes I see clients and I actually tell them, you know what? This is a pretty good offer, and it would be pretty reasonable for you to accept. But that happens probably 5% of the time. The fact is that the employer is thinking about their bottom line. Their most employer’s main goal is to make money. And so when they terminate you, they’re trying to offer you something that’s like less than what you’re actually entitled to. And they’re hoping that you won’t go speak with a lawyer because it happens for a lot of employees.
See, you know, a figure that looks reasonably fair. And they feel like it’s a lot of money and they just sign and they move on, only to find out later that they were entitled to much more.
And so employers are banking on you not knowing your rights and not going to speak with a lawyer. So I highly, you know, recommend that you seek out legal advice, even if the number looks very appetizing to you.
The letter might also say something like this: this amount exceeds your legal entitlements, or this amount is more than your contract entitles you to. You know that’s not always true.
And you know it’s definitely dishonest, but it’s also a legal position that they’re taking.
The fact is that there are often termination clauses in your employment contract, which attempt to dictate what you’re entitled to on termination. And the vast majority of them try to say that you only get your minimum entitlements under the Employment Standards Act, which are less than what you would be entitled to under the common law.
But the fact is, in Ontario specifically, and most provinces, there’s a very high bar that needs to be met for these termination clauses to be enforceable.
And so I would say 95% of the clauses I see on a daily basis are unenforceable, which means that you’re entitled to reasonable notice, but your employer might tell you that you’re not.
And so don’t take the letter just from its face value. Make sure you look into it. Speak with a lawyer now speaking about your severance entitlements.
So as you might have gathered from now, as you might have gathered from this episode, is that there’s two kind of standards. So the employment standards, like can a labor code creates kind of the minimum standards for every employee. But common law is much more generous.
And so I think you’ll notice that there’s lots of severance pay calculators out there on the market. And I will say, look, it’s a great tool for understanding what you could be entitled to.
But ultimately, each of these calculators uses a separate algorithm. And, you know, it can be difficult to tell you with certainty what your severance entitlements are. You might find that you try a few different severance pay calculators and you get, you know, vastly different result. It’s a great tool to figure out, you know, what the ballpark is, but ultimately, you’ll want to speak to a lawyer who can assess your individual situation and give you a clear opinion on what your actual entitlement is.
So the bare minimum entitlements are lower than common law. Make sure you understand that common law is about a month per year of service, where your minimum standards is like 1 to 2 weeks per your service.
So you want to have that common law as much as possible. And whereas the Employment Standards Act and the can, the Labor Code is very sciency. It says, you know, if you’ve been employed three years, you get three weeks. If you’ve been employed five plus year, you get three plus five.
You know, I won’t get into it because it’s different for everyone. But the common law is more of an art.
So it’s based on factors such as your age, your length of service, your the job you have, how much you make, and any factor which could increase or decrease the amount of time it can take to get you a new job. So maybe you have a disability that interferes with your ability to find a job.
Maybe you have family accommodation needs that interfere with your ability to get a job. Maybe the economy is not good, maybe your location is remote and there’s very few employment opportunities in terms of character of employment.
Maybe your job is so niche that there’s only like two jobs in the world that you can do it. Basically, any factor that goes into how long it will take you to find a job. Now your length of service is probably the most important factor because it tends to, you know, there is a rule.
There is not truly a rule of thumb, but there kind of is. So, it’s a good place to start that, you know, every year of service equals about a month of notice, and it goes up and down based on, you know, the factors I just described.
But it’s more of an art. And so that’s why it’s hard to look at these severance pay calculators. Because they don’t take every factor into consideration. Again, they also have different algorithms.
And the person making the algorithm could have a different opinion. Not so thinking. When you work with a lawyer, just like a doctor, people have different opinions.
So my recommendation to you is to find someone, a real person that you trust to, you know, validate or invalidate what the someone’s pay calculator is saying because it’s not always 100% accurate.
So what do you do of the offer is not fair. So once you speak with a lawyer, figure out what the range is, what common law would say you’re entitled to, then you can compare it to what’s been offered.
And, you know, determine if it’s something you want to negotiate. So if it’s not fair, you negotiate. If it is fair, you can accept. And I would just say make sure that you understand what the release is saying. So when you sign that, there’s no question about what it means and the legal consequences for you. So generally speaking, you will fare better with a lawyer helping you.
And this is a really disappointing thing for employees, because they find that they actually have to spend some money on legal fees to get a fair package. And I resent that.
That has to happen, but it’s a reality. I have had clients kind of try to negotiate themselves, and it has worked out, very, very rare occasions. But generally speaking, you will fare better with a lawyer helping you. And what happens is the lawyer sends what’s called a demand letter.
And the demand letter is called the demand letter because you’re demanding more money essentially, and you send it to the company and you ask for a better resolution.
Essentially, you know, when you’re engaging in the negotiations, you do kind of try to start a little bit higher, try to get to a place that’s reasonable. There’s also, you know, something called settlement value.
So, you know, it takes about three years to go to trial these days, three plus years to go to trial. It takes stress, costs money. And so generally speaking, I do recommend that my clients make compromises in their negotiations.
So ultimately, you know, an employer’s never going to pay you 100% of your best day in court unless there’s some other, you know, issues that are going on that really encourage them to settle.
But generally speaking, they don’t pay 100% of your full legal entitlement.
My job is to get you as close to your full legal entitlement while making kind of reasonable compromises. Settlements like pre litigation typically take 1 to 3 months, give or take. I’ve had I think my quickest settlement was four weeks or something. And my longest settlement was like seven, eight months.
That only happened one time. It’s very rare, but typically it takes 1 to 3 months. So just just note that employers take varied approaches with these negotiations. Some are aggressive, some are really easy to deal with. You know, some are generous, some are cheap. It really depends.
And the process can be a little bit stressful because while we’re in these negotiations, you know, we you’re financial security is is at risk. And I appreciate that.
And I try to do as much as possible to make the process as stress free as possible. You know, it really a lot of things are not in our control. So the way the employer responds is not totally in our control. And it can be very stressful.
But I think it’s still better than accepting something that’s less than what you’re entitled to. And look, I think alike, some people are concerned about the reputation or, their reputation in the, in these negotiations or, you know, ruffling feathers. What I generally say to that is like, look, yeah, the company is never going to be happy that you’re asking for more money because their goal is to save money and make money, not spend money.
But look, these are your legal entitlements and there’s nothing, you know, morally wrong about asking for them.
You know, I think where people are in particular industries that are very small and there’s only a few employers, there’s things that we can do to make it, less stress, less, less adversarial. And one way to do that is to just have a less aggressive kind of initial letter and make it very friendly.
And, you know, there’s a tone that we can proceed with that can ease concerns about that. But generally speaking, it doesn’t really matter, because truly, when you settle the terms of the settlement are confidential.
And if you’re worried about your reputation, sometimes we can ask for a mutual non disparagement clause that can protect you from the company. Basically talking bad about you and the community.
So there’s things we can do if you’re concerned about kind of how you look by asking for more severance.
But, you know, I would if it were me. I wouldn’t hesitate to get my entitlements, and try to move on. And and they’re looking at you like. Like you’re just a business, right? And it’s just a business. And similarly, I try to, you know, think about it like that as well. Like, this is the law. This is a business. And, you know, as an employee, you obviously put yourself first and ask for what you’re entitled to.
And don’t worry about how they take it because they’re not worried about how you’re taking this termination. You know what I mean?
So anyway, if you’re concerned about that, just bring it up with your counsel and you know they can help ease your concerns or tell you ways that we can guard against, any reputational issues. Now, when you lose your job, you do have a duty to start looking for another job.
And this is called your duty to mitigate. Mitigate just means avoid. So you have a duty to try to avoid the losses you’ve experiences you’ve experienced as a result of the loss of your job. So unfortunately, you can’t just just kind of do nothing and hope that your severance package will carry you.
And basically the way that it works is once a matter goes to trial, the court will deduct every dollar you earned in your new job from what the old employer owes you.
And during the negotiation, you know, obviously trial is different, but a negotiation during the negotiation, employers take kind of different approaches with that. Some employers are very aggressive and will actually send you like job postings and ask you every week about what your job search efforts are and whether you’ve gotten another job.
Some employers don’t even bring it up. So it really depends on the style of the lawyer is and the company. But generally speaking, what we do to try to avoid a situation where your new job affects what they’re willing to pay you.
As we try to just settle things as quickly as possible and hope that during this period you don’t get a job. But, you know, ultimately, I tell my clients to look for comparable jobs.
That makes sense for them. You know, generally, I recommend that my clients try to find job sites that make sense for them in their careers, and the duty is to look for comparable work.
So if you’re working at an office job, it doesn’t require you to go, you know, apply at McDonald’s or AMW. It requires you to look for jobs that had similar pay, similar terms. And yeah, so some of that, some of the terms I’m talking about, for example, is location. For example, you live in Toronto. It doesn’t require you to go look for jobs in Ottawa or your remote worker.
And there’s a good recipe, your remote worker or you just prefer remote work. Or, you know, the previous job was completely remote. There’s the was pretty iffy on this, but I would venture to say that, you don’t have a requirement to go 100% in office job if your previous job was 100% remote.
Also, you want to look for similar pay, similar incentive compensation. And yeah, and I think office in the termination is a great opportunity for you to go find, a better paying job. Ultimately, that’s the goal. And that’s what I encourage my clients to do. I think the loyalty tax is real. So when you’re able to leave that ceiling of what your compensation should be goes away.
And so definitely take this opportunity to try to find something better. And I will say, you know, one of the best things about my job is when I hear that my clients have found something better, and even months later, they’re telling me, oh, this is so much better. And I can’t believe I, you know, worked on that other place. This is so much better. That’s like the best thing I could possibly hear.
So look, and if you need help with your job search, you can ask me. There’s also, you know, career counseling places and recruiters who will help you find another job.
But ultimately, you know, do your best with what you have. Definitely try some networking, have some lunches, some coffees with some people in industries that you’re interested in, and follow people on LinkedIn who talk about job searches and how to find a job and all that stuff. Now, getting into litigation.
So I just wanted to quickly mention that, you know, sometimes, litigation is recommended immediately is very rare. Usually you want to negotiate, try to negotiate first before you commence a legal proceeding.
But if the issues are so, you know, complex and intense, sometimes litigation is necessary. Also, some companies, just like in their history, suggest that you need to sue them.
Sometimes companies aren’t willing to negotiate at all. And so you know that a lawsuit is necessary. But litigation is only recommended in a small number of cases where the amount to be gained is worth the time, stress, and money needed to to move the matter forward. And I will say litigation is not for everyone. There’s certain personality that is really unsuited for litigation.
And, you know, it’s up to you to figure out, like if that’s something you want to engage in, it’s not an easy process. It’s stressful. There’s a lot of delay there. There’s a lot of tactics. There’s a lot of really, you know, offensive settlement offers an unfortunate situations. And it’s not easy.
And so it’s only recommended for a few number, a very small number of cases. So generally speaking you, you will want to try to negotiate something first. And then they wanted to tell you a little bit about what it’s like working with a lawyer. So I tell you a little bit about some of the terms that we talk about and use and, and how it might feel. So first of all, the first thing is usually a consultation.
Now some lawyers offer free consultation, some offer paid. Personally I only offer paid consultations. I will make exceptions. If there’s extenuating circumstances. But generally speaking, all my consultations are paid and this includes. And I do this for a couple reasons.
One, I want to make sure that I have taken the time to really look into everything and be able to give you a wholesome opinion. I also think, you know, it’s a disservice to myself if I’m giving a lot of free legal advice because it’s not sustainable for me going forward.
So I’m allowed, I’m able to kind of show up in my role a little bit better if I’m compensated for my time.
There are lots of firms who offer free consultations. Typically they’re a bit shorter, and they may not be as kind of wholesome or holistic as the consultations I’m offering. But, you know, if, if that’s important to you to have a free consultation, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
And, and definitely, you know, see, make sure that it’s a good fit. That’s the most important thing, whether it’s paid or unpaid, you want to make sure you’re feeling comfortable through your lawyer and, both, both in terms of like, you know, their advice, but also the personality.
And, you know, whether you feel there’s a connection there. So make sure whether it’s paid or unpaid, you feel good about working with someone. Now there’s a retainer. Typically there’s a retainer agreement.
So this is just a contract that outlines the engagement between you and your lawyer. And it will contain terms. The most important terms you want to look for in these agreements is how the services can be terminated and in which situations they can be terminated, and basically what can happen if it’s terminated. You also want to make sure you understand the fees involved.
And I’ll tell you a little bit about some of the type of fee arrangements that are offered. So one is a traditional hourly retainer. So the lawyer will have an hourly rate. It’s usually within the range of like 2 to $800. It really depends based on the experience of the lawyer and their practice area and expertise.
And, you know, definitely there’s hourly rates maybe over 800. But generally speaking, those are reserved for probably their business type clients.
So there’s the traditional hourly retainer. There’s also sometimes, lawyers can offer a flat rate retainer. So, you know, there’s a flat fee based on each step of the proceeding. So maybe the first demand letter is an amount maybe, you know, the first steps of litigation is a certain flat fee.
Sometimes that happens. Sometimes it’s combination of a flat rate and other things as well. The other one is called contingency. And I work on contingency quite a bit, because it helps my client access legal services. And, you know, if you don’t have a ton of cash flow, it can be really beneficial to not have to pay until the very end of the matter.
Basically, contingency is, it’s called contingency because it’s dependent on or contingent on the lawyer getting you a result. And usually it’s a better result than what’s been already offered to you.
So for me, I offer contingency very frequently, and it’s based on a percentage of the improvement to your package. So say you’ve been offered already ten weeks as a severance package. The first ten weeks will never be subject to the contingency fee, but say I am able to get you an additional ten weeks.
Then the contingency fee will be a percentage of that improvement. And the great thing about contingency is if we don’t get a better result, you don’t have any legal fees. So essentially you’re placing the risk on me that things won’t work out. Whereas with the flat rate, an hourly retainer, the risk is on you that it won’t work out because you’ll have to pay fees regardless of the outcome.
So contingency can be definitely beneficial for lots of folks. But specifically when you lose your job, you know, I think finances can be very stressful.
So to know that you don’t have to pay fees unless there’s a positive outcome or better outcome. And, you know, it’s only a percentage that can make folks feel a little bit more at ease.
To know that the initial package is, is always going to be the kind of basement and whatever you can get it. In addition to that, it is just great. And again, just make sure you feel comfortable with your lawyer.
Make sure that you’re comfortable asking some questions. Make sure you understand the way they practice and ask as many questions as possible. And now just to and lastly, I just want to say, you know, severance, reasonable notice and notice are applicable to most employees.
There’s sometimes your employer might say that they have just cause to terminate your employment, or you’ve been guilty of willful misconduct or something like that. Generally speaking, don’t be worried about those allegations.
Even if those allegations are made, still contact a lawyer because the lawyer can help you assess, you know, whether those allegations actually meet the test for just cause or willful misconduct.
And just like there’s a high bar for termination clauses, there’s also a high bar to show that you’re not entitled to notice because you’ve done something bad. The courts recognize that, you know, that’s the worst thing that could possibly happen. You know, you’ve been terminated and you don’t get any severance. And so there’s a very high bar for just cause.
And so don’t be freaked out if they’re claiming just cause and not wanting to pay you anything, it doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to anything. That’s pretty much all I have to say about termination.
So there’s lots more to go into, and I’ll definitely get into everything in detail in further episodes. But that’s kind of the Sparks notes version of Termination of Employment. I hope I’ve addressed, you know, the key issues that affect people when they’re terminated, but in some terminations are hard. Look after yourself. Take it easy.
When you first get the notice, go to therapy if possible, lean on your loved ones and remember that the first termination offer is rarely your best option.
It’s usually kind of a cheap offer to try to save some money and hope that you don’t get a lawyer. So go speak with a lawyer. You know, you can speak with a lawyer. You can speak with a paralegal.
Don’t sign anything before getting legal advice. So I would only recommend that you sign something after getting wise and making sure that the package is fair and you understand your rights and what you can do if you feel it’s not fair. If it’s not fair, definitely negotiate. I recommend you work with a lawyer to negotiate. It goes a longer way.
You can definitely get a better package than, you know, working and trying to negotiate it on your own. And look, if you’re interested in working with a lawyer, you know there’s lots online.
You can also work with me. You can reach me through my website at workplacesage.com. You can also email me at stephanie@workplacesage.com and you know, check out my website.
I do have some more information on there about specific situations that you might be dealing with.
But ultimately remember that, you know, advice is best given when you speak to a lawyer directly and they give you tailored advice about your situation. I’m here if anyone needs a consultation and wishing everyone the best of luck in their careers. I know working and in this kind of late stage capitalism is not easy and just encourages you to keep going, keep putting one foot in front of the other.
I’m hopeful that things will get better for you after this termination. Like I said, so many of my clients are able to find something bigger and better when they leave a job or when they’re let go.
And so I hope that’s the same for you. I think the old age saying of when one door closes, another door opens is completely true in the realm of termination. So try to keep hold of some of that hope and do the best you can to move forward.
And look, if we never speak directly, I just wish you all the best. You know, you got this, and I’m here if you need anything. Thank you so much for joining me for my first episode.
I can’t wait to see you in other episodes. And all the best to you.
Take care. Bye.
